Colleen Hoover and Michael Showalter on How Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson Made ‘Verity’ More Erotic, ‘It Ends With Us’ Drama and Sex in Movies

SPOILER ALERT: This interview contains minor spoilers for “Verity.”

Colleen Hoover is the author of the wildly popular novels “It Ends with Us,” “Verity” and “Reminders of Him,” to name a few. She’s sold over 35 million copies worldwide, making her th e hottest author alive. And several of her page-turners have been adapted into Hollywood films, including Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni’s domestic violence saga “It Ends with Us,” which grossed over $350 million globally and whose messy aftermath is worthy of a book — or really, a Netflix docuseries — unto itself (more on that later).

Michael Showalter is a veteran comedian who first gained notice as part of the sketch comedy troupe The State before co-writing and starring in the 2001 cult classic comedy “Wet Hot American Summer.” Since then, he’s become one of the most reliable directors in the biz, helming the Oscar-nominated comedy-drama “The Big Sick,” Oscar-winning biopic “The Eyes of Tammy Faye” and Hulu’s Emmy-winning Elizabeth Holmes series “The Dropout.”

The prolific novelist and filmmaker have joined forces for “Verity,” in theaters Oct. 2. Adapted from Hoover’s bestselling book, it tells the tale of Lowen (Dakota Johnson), a struggling writer who has a chance encounter with Jeremy (Josh Hartnett), a sexy stranger that gives her an offer she can’t refuse: get paid handsomely to ghostwrite the final novel in author/his wife Verity Crawford’s (Anne Hathaway) immensely successful book series. You see, Verity’s experienced an accident that’s left her confined to a wheelchair and unable to move her extremities, let alone write. Lowen reluctantly accepts, but when she finds a manuscript Verity had stashed away, she starts to wonder if the woman she’s imitating committed a heinous crime.

“Verity” is, in many ways, an old-school erotic thriller filled with sex, intrigue and twists and turns. And Showalter had plenty of help from Hoover — who he calls “The Wizard of Oz” — when it came to sharpening its screenplay, texting her day and night throughout the pre-production process (and beyond) with questions about the psychology of certain characters. The questions were so pointed that Hoover had to go back and reexamine the novel herself because she didn’t remember it in such great detail. “The readers are open to changes,” Hoover advised Showalter and screenwriter Nick Antosca, “as long as the essential DNA of the story remains intact.”

Hoover and Showalter sat down for a lively conversation with Variety about “Verity” and so much more.

Michael, I’m curious how you got involved with directing “Verity?” This seems like a different pond to play in — or lake.

Showalter: Yes, a lake with dead bodies floating around in there. “Idea of You” is a sexy movie and “Spoiler Alert,” the movie I’d done before “Idea of You,” has got a couple of sex scenes in it. It’s funny you say this because I did “Spoiler Alert,” which had two sex scenes in it, and it’s the first time I realized that a sex scene can be more than just a sex scene — you can tell story with a sex scene, you can learn about character with a sex scene.

Like “Game of Thrones” and “sexposition.”

Showalter: Yes. “Idea of You” has some great sex scenes in it and me and Anne [Hathaway] got along really well on it. So, I loved the erotic nature of this story and something that was very important in this story is to bring that stuff out. I have to credit Colleen, because in the script we added back in a lot of the more erotic aspects of it.

I’m a ‘90s kid who grew up during the heyday of the erotic thriller, with films like “Basic Instinct” and “The Last Seduction,” and it’s a genre that’s largely disappeared. But there does seem to be an audience yearning for it to return. And I think that’s because sex in mainstream movies has largely disappeared. There’s a lot on TV, but not in movies.

Hoover: I feel like, as a writer and someone who’s been in the romance world for so long, I never felt the disappearance of it because romance is the bestselling genre — and dark romance, especially, is having a moment. But I do think it’s disappeared from cinema. I don’t know the answer to that. I just know that, as a writer, you fill it in one area and not in the other.

Is that why you think more people have turned to books for erotic stuff? Because it’s not in movies?

Hoover: Yeah. And that’s been great for me as a romance author!

Showalter: I think that, for whatever reason, that primal sexuality you saw in those movies where there’s carnal attraction — that deep, primal thing that you see in an erotic thriller — for a time was at odds with some of the things going on culturally, and maybe, for whatever reason, people are open to it again in a way that they hadn’t been for a while.

Colleen, how much say do you have in the adaptations of your books? Do you get to choose the director and screenwriter?

Hoover: It really depends on the film. I started a production company [Heartbones Entertainment] with my production partner, Lauren Levine, and we did “Reminders of Him” last year. She and I were the ones who chose the director.

Showalter: I didn’t get a phone call.

Hoover: You were a little busy with “Verity!”

Showalter: I’m just saying, I didn’t get a phone call.

Hoover: We wrote the script — every aspect. And with “It Ends With Us,” I sold the rights to Justin Baldoni, who became the director. With “Verity,” I don’t think I did [have a say].

Showalter: I didn’t get a phone call.

Hoover: Until it took off and they got a director and it started being filmed was I truly an everyday part of it. It took a long time for this one to get off the ground, but the guys who bought it, Nick [Antosca] and Alex [Hedlund], so much wanted me to be a part of it. And when they brought Michael onboard, he also wanted me to be a part of it.

I wanted to talk about some of the major changes between the film and the novel. For starters, there’s one less kid.

Hoover: I think that that was actually a really good change. I had read all the versions of the script before you had even come onboard, and I remember them asking us to remove one of the children because it felt different due to the time allotted on film, and it gave the story a different vibe that was almost too dark and unrealistic. I was nervous about that, but when I read the next version of the script I was like, oh, that’s the best change we could have made. I am very open to changes, and I think readers are too when it comes to thrillers as opposed to romance. In romance, you are really connected in a different kind of way to certain aspects of a relationship, whereas in a movie like “Verity,” I think you’re more connected to the way you felt about the book while reading it.

In the book, Lowen catches Verity move her leg via the baby monitor. Not having that I think added to the suspense of the film.

Showalter: She moves her leg? When does she move her leg?

Hoover: I would have to go back to the book.

Showalter: This is getting a little bit into the weeds of it, but one of the changes was the storyline about Lowen being a sleepwalker in the book. It’s a very important storyline in the book that helps you understand Lowen’s character, and we actually shot a lot of that stuff. Those scenes are wonderful and Dakota’s acting is incredible, but what you learn during the process of making a movie is how important it is to keep the focus and the momentum. You don’t have time to go on some of the diversions that you can in a book. A scene that I really would have loved to have shot that’s in the book is when Jeremy goes to the supermarket and encounters some of the moms in the town that they live in, and we learn that he’s the hot dad in town. Something new that we added was this “All About Eve” thing that’s happening with Lowen [and Verity]. That’s not in the book.

There’s a major sequence in the film — some of which is in the trailer — where Lowen is pleasuring herself and fantasizing about having sex with Jeremy but then the fantasy switches to Verity, and Anne and Dakota kiss.

Hoover: That was one I was nervous about because it wasn’t in the book and I didn’t know how it was going to play out or how it was going to fit in, but it ended up being one of my favorite scenes — and made for a really fun trailer, too! So, I was relieved. As an author, when they add or take out something you hope it works, and luckily it did.

Showalter: It started with “we need some sexy stuff to happen.” In the book, she’s looking at the picture of Harper, has the conversation with Jeremy, she talks about how great he was, and they have this intimate-hug moment that I thought had the potential to be something very sexually charged. And it’s just a hug, but it’s between two people who are in such strange contexts and who desperately need to be hugged. What’s interesting is, Lowen is turned on. She’s hugging him in his profound moment of grief that then turns erotic, and where do you put that energy? I think in the book, she masturbates.

Hoover: I don’t remember.

Showalter: It really evolved into Anne and Dakota saying, “What if while she’s making out with him, it turns into [Anne]?” And me going, “If you want to do that, yeah.” And I thought there was something very sexy — erotic — about Dakota being like, “I’m just going to sit on your lap and start kissing you.” She sees [Jeremy] and just goes there, and that felt like the beginning of something that felt transgressive. She took this thing that she wants, and he’s there for it.

Colleen, you’d mentioned “It Ends With Us” and I’m assuming we’re never going to see the sequel book adapted into a film at this point?

Hoover: I mean, I don’t own the rights to the film sequel. So, if they decide to make another one, I’m all for it!

I personally don’t see that happening. I’m also curious what it’s like to have so much drama attached to one of your works? You entrusted your work to someone, and it’s turned into, I don’t even know what at this point.

Hoover: I feel for everyone, you know? As the author, I was — and am — so proud of that movie. I think they did a great job. I think Blake [Lively] was great in it, Justin [Baldoni] was great in it, Brandon [Sklenar] was great in it, and I saw the completed film before any of that happened, or I knew it was happening, so I was proud of the film! And I still am. It was a huge hit. So, that’s what I focus on and I’m grateful that we’re here doing another one. It’s been a great experience and I think the aftermath is going to be a great experience. I’m just really, really excited for this release in a way that I don’t think I have been. I had a lot of nerves with the other ones, for a lot of different reasons, but this one is pure excitement.

Michael, since you directed four episodes of the Elizabeth Holmes Hulu series “The Dropout,” I’m curious if you had any knowledge that the star of the series, Amanda Seyfried, has a substantial role in Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim’s Elizabeth Holmes doc “You Can See Everything?”

Showalter: No… What?!

Amanda is in “You Can See Everything,” and I believe she acts out certain sequences as Elizabeth Holmes.

Hoover: My mind is blown right now. I am obsessed with Nathan Fielder’s stuff. He’s the only person my cat follows on Instagram.

Showalter: I didn’t know that. I know about the movie but I didn’t know Amanda was in the movie. That makes sense to me and I cannot wait to see it.

Colleen, I’m curious how you feel about the state of male readers? I go to bookstores all the time and it’s mostly women there, and you never really see men participating in book clubs. I feel like women are the only ones reading novels now for the most part and men consume a lot of non-fiction.

Hoover: I feel that I’m just on the side of the internet where I see so many men starting book clubs in a way they haven’t done before. I have three boys and they read a lot. I don’t have a lot of male readers myself because most of what I write is romance, but “Verity” does have a much bigger male following than a lot of my other books. So, I wasn’t aware that that was a thing because I am in this part of the internet where I feel men are embracing book clubs and the fantasy side of the genre in a way I’ve never seen before, but that may be because of social media and my algorithm.

I should correct myself and say “straight male” epidemic of not reading novels.

Showalter: I don’t read fiction.

I think you learn more about empathy and the human condition from reading novels than you do from reading non-fiction.

Hoover: I guess it depends on what type of non-fiction you’re reading, but I do feel like in the romance genre, which is the bestselling genre, you get so much more than sex. A lot of my books don’t even have a sex scene in them. I think there’s a misconception. I try to write about life and feelings and I love relationships and what drives people into love. For me, a sex scene can feel extremely throwaway, whereas the touch of a hand can feel like the whole culmination of why you’re still reading the book.